Transforming Conflict with Jonathan Miller

Aug. 26, 2020

Transforming Conflict with Jonathan Miller

Transforming Conflict with Jonathan Miller

“We make this fundamental mistake where we attribute bad intentions to people. What we often think is that rather than thinking about that fact that somebody acted a certain way or did a thing because of maybe an environmental circumstance, we’re more likely to think it’s because of who they are and that they intended poorly on you. That is a fundamental error, and it’s actually usually the circumstance.” - Jonathan Miller 

Conflict is something we deal with everyday in all aspects of our lives, which is why I think this episode is going to be so relevant to all listeners. Today’s Brave By Design guest became fascinated with communication, and he shares how that fascination translated into his work of transforming conflict into healthy collaborative relationships.

Jonathan Miller is a conflict transformation coach, and he has spent hundreds of hours in deliberate communication practice and stretching himself outside of his comfort zone. He is a former program leader at Landmark Worldwide and is in the process of becoming a Certified Professional Coach through Erickson Coaching International. Jonathan has done extensive training in Nonviolent Communication and is also a dedicated Vipassana meditation practitioner, having spent well over 2,000 hours meditation in the past few years. His coaching style is rigorous, compassionate and highly action-oriented. 

What Jonathan reveals in this episode will provide practical and actionable ways that you can start improving your conversation with others around you and reduce conflict - starting today. 

Connect with Jonathan: https://www.mindfulcommunication.me/

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What You’ll Hear In This Episode: 

  • How a personal endeavor led Jonathan on a journey into the world of communication [3:03]

  • What he says is the unpredictable area of conflict [7:41]

  • Different techniques to use instead of just “fight or flight” when dealing with conflict [9:20]

  • What is a “Fundamental Attribution Error” and why it almost always affects our mindset going into conversations with others [13:52] 

  • Tips and strategies to prepare for a conversation about conflict while clarifying your intentions [20:14]

  • What a partnership mindset is all about and how it can aid in your communication  [25:43]

Additional Links & Resources:

Sign up for Jonathan’s 4-Part Video Training Series

His Tough Talks Made Easy Personal Coaching Session (Receive 50% off PROMO CODE: Brave50 on your next 45-minute call) 

Mindful Communication Podcast

Support the show (https://www.paypal.me/bravebydesign)

Transcript
Jonathan Miller :

We make this fundamental mistake where we attribute bad intentions to people. what we think is we often think of rather than thinking about the fact that somebody acted a certain way or did a thing because of maybe an environmental circumstance, we're more likely to think that it's because of who they are and that they intended poorly on you. That is a fundamental error. It's usually actually the circumstance.

Laura Khalil :

Welcome to brave by design. I'm your host, Laura Khalil. I'm an entrepreneur, coach and speaker. I love thinking bait, exploring the power of personal development and sharing the best strategies from thought leaders and pioneers in business to empower ambitious women and allies to bravely rise and thrive. Let's get started. Everyone, I want to welcome you to this episode of brave by design. I am so excited to speak with our guest today. Jonathan Miller is a speaker, facilitator and leadership coach specializing in working with high performers to be powerful in the face of conflict. And some of you know, I love talking about conflict. He believes in the power of a honing one's communication skills, to not just deal with conflict, but to transform them into powerful partnerships that serve one's business and their lives. His programs draw heavily from his extensive training in several communication systems, including nonviolent communication, and the Harvard negotiation project landmark worldwide and more. His methodology is also heavily influenced by his Vipassana meditation practice of which he has spent over 2000 hours practicing Holy mackerel, Jonathan, welcome to brave by

Unknown Speaker :

design.

Laura Khalil :

audience knows that I really do think conflict is such is a conflict. Connection is another word for conflict and My book, and I would love to hear from you. It's not often that I meet people who are comfortable in the conflict zone, talking about how to deal with it. So tell us a little bit about you and how you got started in this.

Jonathan Miller :

It wasn't always the case that I was comfortable with conflict. It was definitely something that came over time. But because I spent my whole life avoiding conflict, that was my go to strategy, I was a professional avoider, still a deeply ingrained habit shaking off. So go to and if I wasn't avoiding, I was confronting competing, no silence, or it was violence. Those are basically the two options that I had. Really, that's all I saw available to me at the time. And I think that that's common in the workplace as well as this kind of those two different ways or some sort of middle ground where you're accommodating but you're not really thrilled with the end result. Maybe resentment or guilt or fear, or something like that like that. Okay. And what started with my journey was actually in a 1984 GMC van Dora.

Unknown Speaker :

And what exactly is that?

Jonathan Miller :

Yeah, it's an old school van with a pop top, a little kitchenette inside and a bed that turns into sleep seating area. And my partner and I, we had always dreamed of going on this big road trip around North America checking out national parks, cities really into rock climbing want to do that as well. And so we came up with this plan. We saved up for years. And at one point it just the right time came where and there's never a right time but the right time came, we had our jobs. We moved into the van we set off and I remember, we were so excited. I mean, we had a pretty strong relationship. We didn't think anything could really go wrong that we couldn't handle, but put to full size adults and a tiny space like that. tougher than you might think

Laura Khalil :

That's probably like people are listening to this and probably having like pandemic vibes right now. They're like, Yes, we have been there.

Jonathan Miller :

So our listeners understand, right? Yeah. And what came about was this anxiety round like, Holy moly, is this really what the trip is gonna be about? Because we weren't really fighting, but we were kind of just getting at each other a little bit of bickering here and there. Mm hmm. And it really came to in one incident. I was sitting there chopping vegetables. And Laura, my partner, she was there, watching the stove, cooking up some stuff. And without really thinking, I said, Hey, can you pass me that potato? And then she almost immediately turned to me said, I'm doing something right now. Can't you see? Oh, and I was really taken aback. I was shocked more than anything, because not only did this happen, but this had actually happened a few times. I don't remember how I reacted the first few times I probably got defensive I probably went quiet because I avoid conflicts. But this time I was just mostly shocked. And she was shocked as well. She had the wherewithal to realize, wow, what was that? Huh? And we both asked that question, what was that? And so we sat down and over dinner, we analyze the situation like what exactly happened here. And when I asked the question, can you get me that potato? Mm hmm. What she heard was, stop what you're doing and get me that potato immediately. And why did she hear that? Well, when she grew up, it was just her and her mom. And the name of the game was patience. Wait, your turn. And so naturally, when I made this request, what she heard is that she should stop what she's doing immediately and take care of what I'm asking instead of what she's doing,

Laura Khalil :

and that your needs are probably greater than her own.

Jonathan Miller :

That's right. Yeah. Lots of assumptions at play, right. And naturally, I also had assumptions at play because I grew up in a household where there's three kids and if you don't make what you want heard, you're not going to get it. So when I say pass the potato what I mean is now whenever you have a chance, pass me the potato. What was said was passed me the potato, two different messages there of what I meant and what she heard. Yeah. And when we uncovered this, we said, okay, well, let's come up with this game plan. I'm going to be more specific with my requests. I'm going to say actually, the habit I developed is one, you have a moment, which I still say to this day, okay, and she was gonna partner with me cut me some slack, you know, ask me when I missed it. And lo and behold, within days the problem completely disappeared. And I thought to myself, wow, there is something special about this communication stuff. Yeah, I came up with this grand plan. I was in a van. I was unemployed, I had lots of time on my hands. And I started diving into all these communication systems, started studying them learning them, and I would practice them bless my partner who is at the end of so many of these terrible fobs that I made. I was also the weird guy these camps Trying out systematically and diligently all these different things that worked. Well, that didn't work for me, okay. And what emerged at the end was a deep understanding of communication, how it works for me and how it works for humans and people in general. And I had this exceptional relationship with my partner coming out of this trip. And not only that, but I found that pretty quickly, I started transforming the way that my relationships back home, were working with my friends, with my family, and I knew I was onto something really amazing hear and so that's kind of how I got into the world of communication. And, and one area in particular that I find particularly fascinating is this area of conflict because communication in and of itself is a fascinating thing. Interpersonal Communication, totally real time dynamic interaction. No matter how much planning you do, you just cannot anticipate how it's going to go and Conflict even more. So there's tension. The stakes are raised. There's emotions here. And it's this normal and natural and very common phenomenon that almost nobody and you know, myself included is not really that good at.

Laura Khalil :

It's really hard. Yeah, no, Jonathan, there's a few things I love about the example you gave us with this potato. There are people that could be listening and all but that's such a simple example. But I actually think that type of example, is what we face every day because it seems so innocuous. And it seems like whoa, what just happened? But when we face those things, understanding all of the information, all of the thoughts, all of the beliefs, all of the trauma, etc, etc. that is behind that that is informing that reaction is so powerful because I know a lot of people would hear that and say, oh, we'll just blow that one off. Can you really blow this stuff off? Does it just keep like building and building and building over time if you just keep trying to avoid?

Jonathan Miller :

Yes. And that's what happened. This was not the first incident, this was the actually the third incident it had happens. And so naturally avoiding it didn't work.

Laura Khalil :

It just doesn't work. avoidance doesn't work.

Jonathan Miller :

Let's get clear here because what we can do is we can actually explore a number of different ways of handling conflict. Okay, now conflict is dependent on the scenario you're going to use different tactics. Okay, now, I mentioned this idea of silence and violence, this avoiding and like confronting, exploding kind of, those tend to be our default reactions. Now, you're going to notice that this silence and violence are very similar to fight and flight, right? These are fight and flight responses. These are stress reactions. These are reactions that are automatic. We're not thinking clearly. They're who highly charged highly emotional, and they're usually unnecessary and do more harm than good. Yeah. Now, that is our fight flight response. And we know that any fight flight response, for example, in the workplace is probably not going to help us you're probably not being threatened by any sort of dangerous animal unless you work in some Safari, but in like an office environment, you're probably mostly not.

Unknown Speaker :

Okay.

Jonathan Miller :

Yeah. Now, that's the normal reactions that we have. There are other reactions though there are other reactions that happen in situations where we want more cooperation. So fight or flight is useful. You know, if I'm in the street, and there's, you know, a person who is waving their arms wildly, and they're yelling, and they're coming at me. Heck, yeah, I'm going to use one of those two methods I'm probably going to avoid and I'm probably going to run away, right? I mean, that's how I'm going to manage that conflict. Or maybe I'm seeing some sort of injustice that I'm really unhappy about. And I have very little attachment to the relationship and I'm probably never going to see this person again. I might opt for, you know, exploding at this person. Hmm, it might serve in this case.

Laura Khalil :

Yeah, tell me what the other options.

Jonathan Miller :

There are three other options. Now these options I'm going to outline These are from the Thomas killman conflict model, and you can look that up. It's a great model for better understanding conflicts. Some other options vary depending on how much time you have, how much cooperation how important the relationships are, how important the issue is, when the power dynamics are. Some Other options include accommodating, accommodating, is much more cooperative than for example, avoiding. However, it is also not very assertive. It's really good for using when there is a power dynamic at play. When the other people are mostly in charge mostly have the power one can be cooperative. They don't have to be super assertive, and you can make it amicable. So that's one way of dealing with conflict as well. And it also really works if the issue is not that important too. So you can say, you know, it's totally fine. Just Just do that thing doesn't really matter to you. Yeah, accommodate, that's a great way rather than avoiding the right. Another way is to collaborate. Now, collaboration is often thought as the number one way to handle conflict. And I would say that often, especially in the workplace, it is a very useful strategy. In terms of handling conflict. However, it does take more time, because with collaborating, you're getting the input of the other person, you're asking them questions. You're really tag teaming on this and, and if the issue is important, and there's no power dynamic there, it's a great tool, but it is going to take more time than some of the other ways to handle cons. Okay, and then the last one is compromising. It's kind of a Balance of everything. It's where you just give up some in order to get some, it's when you're kind of in the middle of everything, it's kind of a middle level cooperation, middle level of assertiveness, it's when you have some time, but not too much time when the when the issue is important to you, but not too too important. All that kind of stuff, you kind of go into compromise. The downside of compromising is that you may not get exactly what you want, there might be some resentments hidden there. So as you can see, I don't necessarily want our listeners to go ahead and like memorize all these things, although it's very useful distinctions. Just what I'm pointing to is that if you find yourself avoiding or exploding, know that those are not your only two options. There are other options, and they're often much better than the silence and violence choices.

Laura Khalil :

Jonathan, I love that. Let's go into let's take an actual situation. So you're at work, something has happened that has Just triggered you. It could be innocuous or it could be a big deal. But you're really kind of hot. You know, you're sort of, you know, in a mood about that. It sounds like that might not be the right time to speak up. Maybe you need to cool off. What do you think?

Jonathan Miller :

Absolutely. I'd say anytime that there's emotions involved and you're highly charged, don't get into conflict, you're not thinking straight. If somebody you think someone slighted you in a meeting, don't talk to them immediately after the meeting, go take some long deep breaths, go take a break for a while. Definitely book a meeting with them for later that afternoon or even the next day, just a quick 15 minute thing to let them know how you felt about it or to find out what their intentions were behind it. But definitely don't do anything in the meeting. Don't do anything immediately after the meeting. That's probably going to head you down a path that you are going to say something you are going to regret and you're going to make more of a mess of this situation than it probably really is.

Laura Khalil :

Yeah. And you know, we've all been there. So for our listeners who are like, Oh my gosh, I've made these mistakes, and I'm beating myself up, guess what, we've all made these mistakes. And that's just a part of life. And that's okay, as long as we can learn these types of strategies. So, Jonathan, when you go into that meeting with someone, and it's like, Alright, we're going to talk about that perceived slight. How do I even most people say to me, I don't even know what to say, I don't even know how to start talking to them. What do you say to that? How do you open the conversation?

Jonathan Miller :

That's a great question. So let's take a step back here. And first, take a look at our mindset. Heading into the conversation. There is one particular assumption that we make, and the scientific term for this is the fundamental attribution error. And what that is, is that we make this fundamental mistake where we attribute bad intentions to people we, what we think is we often think And rather than thinking about the fact that somebody acted a certain way, or did a thing because of maybe an environmental circumstance, we're more likely to think that it's because of who they are and that they intended poorly on you. That is a fundamental error. It's usually actually the circumstance, no matter. Once I get Matt, can you please add that as the opening quote, let me give you a great example. Say you're at even a grocery store. And you ask the clerk, hey, clerk, where are the pickles? And they kind of go like, they're like down that aisle over there. What we're immediately going to assume this fundamental attribution error we're going to make is Oh, they're crabby like they're a crabby person, they're not very helpful as a person, instead of considering the possibility that they're really tired because they were taken care of they're really sick uncle the other day, or that they're just having an off day because they got some terrible news. Whatever the circumstance could be, it could definitely impact them. But we jump to thinking that it's something to do with who they are as a person. So that is the first step, you want to get clear that usually we're making assumptions around that. So that's the first thing I would say. Any thoughts that you wanted to add into that? Yeah.

Laura Khalil :

So I'm curious what if, you know, there are people who walk around on this planet, we've all met them. And maybe at times, we've been them, who kind of have a chip on their shoulder, and they can read very innocuous situations with kind of bad intent. And so at what point I guess I'm sort of curious, before we continue with how to have this type of conversation, you mentioned, well, maybe that person is having a bad day, but you know, you're perceiving is acting in a certain way. Or maybe, you know, they're just really tired. But is there also a question of, well, maybe it's you, maybe they're not doing anything and you're a preference to see things in a certain way that aren't there. What about that, Jonathan? I'm just Curious,

Jonathan Miller :

I have this client and she works at a law firm. She's articling there right now. And she has a boss. And just from the stories that she told this guy is your classic, chaotic yells at people geez boss, like it's like very real. And she's very intimidated by this boss. And so we've had a lot of conversations about the best way to handle a boss. Her style has been very much avoidance, yeah, and accommodating as much as possible. Whereas, you know, I'm encouraging her to be more collaborative to create connection with them and see what's really going on. And it really came to in a moment where she was in his office and he started giving her some pretty critical feedback. And she ended up to her embarrassment. I don't think it's embarrassing at all, but she ended up crying because she just really couldn't be with some of the things that he was telling her. Mm hmm. And in That moment the dynamic completely switched relationship. And what ended up happening was, she told him what was wrong. He insisted that she tell him, she told him. And what came with that conversation was, it actually created a space for him to be vulnerable as well and share what he was dealing with and why he was so erratic. It turns out that he was dealing with divorce settlements. He's dealing with some issues with his son, a whole world of things going on. And I'm just going to invite you to consider that those individuals that really have those chips on their shoulder, Mm hmm. They have those chips on their shoulder, because they're dealing with some stuff. And they don't know how else to deal with it other than to take it out on the world around them. Wow. Although it's hard to find compassion for those people. That's what there is to do. You know, there's this quote from Bernie brown that I absolutely love, I think Bernie Brown, it might be someone else. There's a quote that I absolutely love. And it's be kind because everyone is fighting a battle. Yeah. And that's an important thing to remember.

Laura Khalil :

It is really important to remember, I really appreciate that. So you talk a little bit about this bias that we have when we go into conflict. What's it called, again,

Jonathan Miller :

the fundamental attribution error,

Laura Khalil :

the fundamental attribution error. So recognizing that would be the first step before you walk into a conflict that you're or something you want to address. What happens then Jonathan,

Jonathan Miller :

so that's the first thing you want to do you want to check in ask yourself, okay, is it really them? Or is it a circumstance now, so you can't shake it off? So you just cannot get rid of this idea that it's got something to do with you and them and it's personal, okay. Not a problem. You can definitely confront them about this. You do want to have a conversation about this because if you're not going to communicate about this, what predictably going to happen is resentment for us. stration building until there is these little maybe there's some leaks over the course of the week where you know, these little passive aggressive comments, sarcasm, etc. Until finally there's a moment where there's an explosion and so on kind of like a, you know, pop camping, we know

Unknown Speaker :

exactly what this is like.

Jonathan Miller :

Yeah. So what I would do is a few things heading into difficult conversations. The first thing you want to do is actually take some time, get a piece of paper, and write out exactly what it is that you want to say what it is that you're thinking, make sure it's really crystal clear for yourself. And you want to even bring that piece of paper into the meeting. Although it might sound weird. If I saw you bringing a piece of paper into the meeting, I'd be like, Okay, this person prepared they obviously have some clear things they want to say I'm going to be very keen on listening. Mm hmm. Next thing you want to do is make sure to take this person aside so book a room with them, have this conversation in private. Also, make sure there's some time for Make sure to book like a half hour meeting. Don't Don't make this like a 10 minute like, pull them aside before your next meeting thing. And he's this goes a little bit long Yeah. Now at that moment, what you want to do is you want to clarify your intentions. Now your intentions in this scenario, although you're going to be tempted to let them know what they did that was wrong, I'm going to invite you to have some intention. So get to the bottom of what's really going on. That's the intention. And you can create that you can say that to them. You can say, listen, we had this meeting. I said, blah, blah, blah, and then you said, blah, blah, blah. And I just want to make sure that this is clear for both of us what our intentions are, because it's not working to have us say these things and not working well together. So and then you can say the things that what you heard or how you feel or what you said, Yeah, what I'd suggest before diving into that though, is actually ask them, ask them Well, what's your take on this? How do you feel about all this and then speak because I'm only About that if you actually ask them first, which is a very hard thing to do, I definitely fall into this trap of speaking before listening. But if you listen first, it actually might change the way that you speak. A might eliminate that fundamental attribution error where you're actually like, Oh, you were not even commenting on my thing. You were commenting on something completely different. Hmm. Maybe that's happened to you before Laura, where are our listeners where you're just so sure you're 100% positive, that this thing happened in a specific way. And then you get that little key detail. And it turns out, you're wrong.

Laura Khalil :

Right? Totally. I mean, it's happened all the time. And I feel like it's happened to all of us. And I love that and I love creating the space for this conversation and creating the space. Also, what I hear you saying is to really listen to what someone tells you, you know, people go into these conversations or conflicts with often with an agenda of I have to be right and I have to win. And I have to tell them how much they hurt me, or embarrassed me, or shame me, which are usually like what I see as like the main triggers for why people do not want to be embarrassed at all, or shamed in any way. And by creating the space of listening and being open, and having that mutual desired outcome that you're both trying to work towards, I think is so positive. I really, really love that. And I hope people start to practice it because it really does make conflict less scary and less intimidating.

Jonathan Miller :

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to offer just a couple more things yet, our listeners can really try on to make that conversation go a little bit more smoothly, because sometimes we do want to actually say how it is that we're feeling, say what it is that we heard and stuff like that. Mm hmm. One important thing to do is to really clarify that this is coming from your perspective. So what I might say in a conversation like that, where I really want to tell them about Let them know how I feel hurt. I might say something like, you know, listen, I want to tell you how I feel about this because I felt really hurt. When I heard you say this thing, not by what you said, When I heard you say this thing I heard it like, it's it's my subjective thing, because they may not have said that I felt really hurt. And, you know, it's really intimidating for me to say this, because normally I would just keep this inside. But this time, I really want to tell you, it's really important for me to tell you. So really talking about there's this technique that I love to use is called talking about the talk. And so it's kind of like addressing the elephant in your own room that they can't see. So you can say something like, Listen, I'm really embarrassed to say this. I'm feeling really intimidated right now. But it's really important me that I share this with you, and then you can share it and it really creates the context of vulnerability of openness, of courage. And what that allows for is a more open dialogue, where they can get where you're coming from, they can get that your intentions are clear. Because their brain is subconsciously scanning for threats, they're looking to fight or flight as well. So if you clarify like, hey, like, I'm really nervous about saying this, and but it's important for me to say this, and I want you to know that I want us to have a great working relationship. But it's important for me to say this, seeing all that kind of stuff will make a really big difference in terms of actually coming to a peaceful resolution. And ideally, creating from this conflict, a whole new, strong partnership that can actually last much longer than you know what it is that you were heading to in the first place.

Unknown Speaker :

I love it.

Laura Khalil :

Jonathan, if we can give people something to take away from this conversation? Well, first of all, I mean, this is such a rich conversation. I hope everyone has just been listening very closely and replays this. But if there's a couple of key takeaways we can leave people with, when they're thinking about conflict when they're thinking about dealing with it. What would you say to them?

Jonathan Miller :

I'm gonna leave our listeners and you with one powerful mindset. I call this the partnership mindset. And the partnership mindset is a mindset that has you asking the questions of how can I partner with this person, or this person who wants to partner with me? what's getting in our way right now from partnering with each other? How can this be a win win? There was a woman who was at this workplace. And she found that at these meetings, there was this one person who could never get on board with her ideas. She just had so many issues with this person, there was like, just he was a roadblock for her. Mm hmm. And it just could not continue that way. And so what she did is she took on this partnership mindset, she asked her question, well, how can I partner with this person? What if this person is trying to partner with me and something's getting in our way? And so what she did is she sat down and she spoke with the sky. And she said, Listen, you know, I've been going into these meetings and these ideas haven't been working and I'm wondering Can I actually run my ideas by you before we go into these meetings to get your feedback? And he was taken aback? And he said, Yeah, absolutely. That sounds great. And so that's what she started doing. She started putting these ideas to him. he'd send some feedback. And then all of a sudden, and these meetings now, where he was her biggest adversary. Now all of a sudden, he was her biggest champion, speaking up and saying, I love this idea. This is a great idea. Here's why. And all of a sudden, she turns this conflict that was originally full of drama, and a potential adversary into a partnership and an ally in moving forward in business together.

Unknown Speaker :

Oh, my gosh, I love that.

Laura Khalil :

That is so powerful, Jonathan. I mean, this has been such a rich discussion. I feel like I could talk to you for another two hours. So thank you so much for being here with us. How can people learn more about you and your work

Jonathan Miller :

to places you want? To check out first off is my podcast, the mindful communication Podcast, where I talk a lot more about this and many other topics in the realm of communication, the art and science of connection. And you can also check out my website mindful communication dot m e, where Laura will include it in the show notes. And I've got two great resources you can go check out the first one is a free four part video training series on transforming any and all conflicts in your life. Yes, I'm not kidding. So I highly recommend checking that out with follow up emails as well. Really great free program there. And you can also check out my tough talks Made Easy programs. So if there's a difficult conversation that you're having, and you found that the tips here weren't quite enough for you, you can book a 45 minute consultation with me, or we'll come up with a game plan and a roadmap for how to have that tough conversation with confidence and ease to say it in a very natural and powerful way for you. So you can find that peace of mind that you're looking for. And you can use the promo code braved 54 50% off. And so well I request to you is, stop avoiding that tough conversation and have a go the way that you want to go.

Laura Khalil :

I love it. Jonathan Miller, thank you so much for joining us on brave by design. It was a pleasure. I want to thank you for joining me and remember to subscribe to your favorite app so you can stay up to date, and I would love your review. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and comment on Apple podcasts. You can also keep in touch with me online. You can find me on LinkedIn and I'm also on Instagram at force of badassery. All that information will be available in the show notes. Until next time, stay brave